Only thing missing now is precise cutting

[Prasmus]

Hi Frank

First of all, let me say that you have done a great job in the last couple of releases (up to 1.1.8beta), the two most impotent updates for me is :
  Now TS Doctor is solid rock stable, no more crashes!
  Cutting one file to different files (ei. recorded 1 file with 10 episodes and want to split them into 10 files)!

Now the only thing I really miss is precise cutting. Frame accurate would be nice but even i-frame precision would be ok.
Yes I know TS-Doctor are cutting with i-frame precision but the cutting display doesn't match the saved file, at least not for me (and yes I have checked "Consider I/P-Frames for cutting).

I have played around now a bit and I see a patten, at least on one channel source (this might be another story for other channels, I haven't tested that):

When cutting a file, I set the begin mark where the program begin and the end mark where it ends and saves the new file. When playing the new file I can see it starts about 1 sec. too early. Loading the new file in VideoReDo I can see that the saved files starts something like 1.1 sec. before where I marked the begin and that's typically 3 I-Frames before the mark. The end mark is more or less the same story, it's 1.1 sec. and 3-4 I-Frames too early too ("Prefer cutting before cut out point" is even unchecked!!!!).

I actually tried to offset the mark points by 1.1 sec. and that lives me with a much more precise cutting result but from time to time I'm still 1 I-Frame off witch is annoying and it's very time consuming to offset all marks by 1.1 sec. manually.

Is there any chance that TS-Doctor will be more precise in a version to come ? This is a big issue for me as this is the only thing I miss in TS-Doctor now. I don't care if this feature will cost an upgrade fee or a hole new registration for TS-Doctor as I was ready to buy VideoReDo ($100) if that worked for me....
But VideoReDo don't work for me because in spite the cutting marks are precise it messes up the audio sync in the cuts (when cutting by I-Frames) and resync it by adding more audio packets witch gives an awful sound right after a cutting point (when cutting out commercials). This problem is not in TS-Doctor witch is superior compared to VideoReDo in many ways!

If there isn't any plans to make the cutting more precise, would it be possible to add a setting that offset the cutting marks by x m.sec. or by x I-Frames as a quick fix ?

The above is tested with H264 HD files recorded by DVBViewer Recording Service and FireDTV-C devices.

Peter

[Prasmus]

Hi again

Ok I have tested with some files from other TV channels and the cut offset (diffracts between the cutpoint in the preview window and the resulting saved file) depends very much of what channel is recorded. Some channels are as mentioned above 1.1 sec off, some more and some are spot on the mark (C+ HD is spot on WYSIWYG), or at least as close as I want it.

So my idea of a offset setting for the cutting marks is a bad idea as it depends on the recorded TV channel so please forget it!

Maybe you have tested the preview and cutting on channels that don't give the offset I have on some channels. If you want a sample of a file that gives a offset of 1.1 sec. of the cutting point let me know and I will supply you with it. Maybe you can figure out what goes wrong.

btw. I have seen offsets on SD recordings (Discovery channel) that are up to 4-5 seconds but this is rare and I don't know what version of TS-Doctor I used then.

Peter

[Mandrax]

Hi Peter,
encountered similar issues. In the meantime, until this might be fixed, maybe you try the following
a) open file in VRD and note the time of the respective I-Frame to cut-in, close file
b) open file in TSDoc and set cut-in point at the time identified above
c) don't care about the frame shown, never worked for me so far

This worked for me for all (7) different HD files from German TV so far. I'm not clear currently how to manage cut-out properly yet.
Cross my fingers

[Prasmus]

Hi Mandrax

Thanks for the reply and a possible work around.

Actually I have tried the same but instead of VRD I used VideoReDo (for HD), MPEG Video Wizard (for SD) and ProjectX (for SD) but I came to the conclusion that the cutpoints was way off (compared to the TS-Doctor prewiew) so I didn't try saving it. This is quite some time ago so maybe my conclusion was wrong and this might work.

The cut-out should work the same way....

On the other hand... Most of what I cut has 3 commercial breaks and that leaves me with 4 cut ins and 4 cut outs for each recording. Multiply that with the 10-20 recordings a day I edit and you know why I'm willing to pay some for a tool that actually works and saves me for some work.

All SD recordings I do, I first fix the stream with TS-Doctor and then do the final cutting with MPEG Video Wizard so on SD recordings my output are just like I want it to be. It's a bit more work but the output is great. My only problem is with HD recordings.

Peter

[Mandrax]

Hi Peter,
sorry for having been imprecise :
- with VRD I meant VideoRedo TV Suite 4 (619), so we talk about the same ( and HD only)
- agreed, the frames shown at the "same" time between VideoRedo and TSDoc aren't identical
- maybe you try above suggestion (use time for I-Frame from VideoRedo  as cut-in point for TSDoc); as mentioned have only experience with German 720p material, which comes without IDR-Frames. This could help to find out how far my experience is possibly limited.
- via cable we only receive ad-free HD channels, thus I need to cut one file twice only at start and end .... which is why I haven't done some more detailed exploration for cut-out points
- have tried VideoRedo, Smartcutter and TSDoc for exact cutting of 720p h264 ts-files, all programs have issues (exactness & pixelation, green areas, freeze and maybe more)
- the people from VideoRedo recommend in such cases to re-encode the complete file new, which worked for me twice out of two trials. But I don't like this approach as a normal workflow
- the only thing so far which worked exactly is Quicktime Pro 7 under MacOS, unfortunately only for the video part while there are Apple's limitations with ac3, unless you buy a 1000$ package  or re-encode the audio .... which is not what I really like to do

Wish you all the success

[Prasmus]

Hi again Mandrax

Thank you for clearing up what you mend with VRD (I admit I was slow on that one  ).

I have yet again compared the timestamps for a cut with TS-Doc and VideoReDo and I really don't think using the cut time from VideoReDo on the TS-Doc cutter will work for me.

If I try with recordings from the channel that TS-Doc's preview is 1.1 sec off compared to the saved file I get the following result:

TS-Doc's preview says : 00:11:05.360
VideoReDo says : 00:11:04.2 (on the I-Frame)
Where I should cut in TS-Doc is : 00:11.06.440 (other values near by will properly hit the same I-Fame)

So even that the time is about 1 sec off, it's off the wrong way. I admit I haven't tried actually cutting but all logic says it wont work in this case.

I had really hoped that Cypheros would have replayed and maybe explained why the cutting is more than one I-Frame off for some channels and spot on on other channels. It must have something to do with the stream data and I was hoping it could be fixed. Maybe he will reply, ofcause I can't expect him to read and reply on his forum every single day, he needs to have time off too !

As for now I don't know if Cypheros know of this problem or not.

Mandrax, thanks again for taking the time and explaining, I really appreciate it!

Peter

[Cypheros]

Hi,

even I find not the time to reply on any posting, I read every new posting.

The biggest problem for me is the difference handling of the timers regarding DirectShow. As I don't have my own demuxer, I have to rely on the timing values I get from the demuxer the playback chain is using during playback. Sometimes this values are far different from the value I read from the files during processing the stream.
I would like to have a fixed and defined playback chain but then I will have to include the needed filters. Untill now, all requests to manufacturers of good Mpeg filters ended the moment I talked about patents and risk free agreements.
Patents and all this is a big mess!!!
So, at the moment I have to use the filters I find on the users system.

But I'm working on frame detection routines to be included into the TS-Doctor-Filesource to have a better preview of the correct cutting points.

[Cypheros]

OK,

spend the weekend to revise the H264 I/P-frame cutting routines. Sould work more precisely now. The old routines sometimes ( often for some broadcasts outside of Germany) missed the correct point for cutting, so cutting was too late and not on the correct frame type. So artefacts appeared and some frames were missing.

Please check and tell me.


Friendly regards,
Cypheros

[Prasmus]

Hi

To me it looks like nothing has changed at all. I have tried with both "Use TS Doctor Filesource" unchecked and checked, just to be sure (maybe the new routines required it checked).

I have made a small test clip and the cutting is still 1.03 sec (2 I-Frames) before it should. I have send you a message with an url to the clip if you want to test with it.

Please note that all recordings from that channel is 1.00 to 1.10 sec off so it's very consistent.

Peter

[Prasmus]

Hi again

Just to make sure:

I'm not complaining in this thread and if the cutting precision is +-1 sec then that's how things are. I'm just reporting what I see and what I would like if it's ever possible!

Peter

[Cypheros]

Hi,

thanks for the sample. I will check if this sample behaves different from the files I successfully tested yesterday.

[Mandrax]

Hi
I'm sad to report that out of 3 files (arte HD, Germany) tested, only one cut appeared to occur exactly when I wanted to have it - this I-frame  ( identified by VideoRedo) was easy to detect as it was only one black frame before the film started -  the other two cuts were too late with 1.1.12. In contrast to observations above, the timings from VideoRedo don't work anymore with this version.
As far as I'm in the picture, this software doesn't come with encoding properties, while the only safe cut-in point for HD is an IDR-Frame, even an I-Frame is not always safe though the only possibility for German HD DVB-C recordings.
In the cutting window the option is given to move frame by frame, as no frame-type is signaled the actual frame might be easily B- or more seldom P-type, in other words between two I-Frames. Having ticked "Berücksichtige I/P Frames" could it be that the software always uses the following I-Frame?
Additionally, wouldn't it be an improvement only to allow movement for HD material only from I-Frame to I-Frame instead of individual frames?
Thanks

[Cypheros]

Hi,

jumping to I-Frame would be great but the Directshow interface has not such a feature. for playback I need the Directshow filter to decode the pictures but I don't get any information about the frame type. So after selecting for the cutting point I have to find the nearest I-Frame to make a cutting without visible distorsions.
But I'm working on a methode to detect the frametype with the TS-Doctor filesource and the timecode. But it's difficult because any Directshow filter handles the timing different.